Why do some parents utterly refuse to accept this concept of punishment of their children? Because they fear the punishment of God, and to live without being a hypocrite, they must project their concept of "justice" (punishment for sin is just wrong) into their parenting of their kids. Of course these kids generally grow up to be worse sinners than their parents, and the world goes into a horrible tailspin of sin that we experience today. Why is gun control such an issue among some sectors of the general population? It is not because of the danger of guns (which is true), but the issue being fought is that the general public must be held hostage by the civil authorities and absolutely no case will any criminal be punished on the spot, being stopped from perpetrating his crime. In countries where guns are outlawed, the outlaws have no problem getting guns, and more powerful automatic weapons than what the police forces have or what is available in the United States. Individuals in this countries also find ways to kill (with a vehicle for example) that shows that you cannot take away all weapons from people, because it is impossible. Yet the statistics that reveal that a gun toting general public reduces crimes to a mere fraction of what they were before are never revealed. My point here is that punishment, clear and swift, and at times extreme (taking away life of the criminal) is a great and powerful deterrent to crime. God knows that, and God works on that basis. We refuse to accept that, and we suffer from that ignorance and rebellion to God.

The conflict then is very spiritual, because God orders punishment as part of the system of things, and the unsaved world wants to ignore, deny, and overturn the possibility of that punishment. They want to interpret all punishment as somehow excessive and wrong, emotionally and spiritually (they use the term "psychologically") damaging the person.

Here we see the doctrine of punishment clearly imposed by God on the world. First, there is punishment before death, which punishment does not take away the life of the person. Secondly there is a punishment that for the gravity of the infraction, the person should lose his life, and this loss of life is at the hand of the civil authorities.

34.18.02 The Problem of Evil. <go to menu>

Arminius, James - Public Disputations, and Private Disputations: Section I Ch 9 & Ch 10 On the Righteousness and efficacy of the providence of God concerning Evil.
Pridgeon - Is Hell Eternal or Will God's Plan fail Ch 12 The Problem of Evil
Winslow - Man of God#Ch14 Good and Evil Alike from God

34.18.03 Overview of positions and Terminology <go to menu>

34.18.04 Descriptions of Hell <go to menu>

34.18.04 a What Hell is Like (Elements) <go to menu>

• Separation from God (Psa 6:5)
• Fire (Isa 66:24; Mark 9:44, 46, 48) furnace Mat 13:42, 50; devouring fire Isa 33:14; unquenchable fire Mt 3:12
• Special kind of Fire (Mark 9:47)
• Brimstone (Rev 14:10)
• Smoke (Rev 14:11)

• Torment (Luke 16:23) and suffering (Mat 10:28).

• No Rest: Tormented day and night (Rev 14:11)

• No water (Luke 16:24)

• Remembers (conviction of conscience) (Luke 16:27) sorrow (2Sam 22:6)

• Forgetting of anything good you have done (Psa 88:12)

• Ignorance of what continues to pass with the living on earth (Job 14:21; Eccl 9:5-6, 10)

• Perceive what they have missed out on (Luke 16)

• Converses and begs mercy that never comes (Luke 16)

• Gnashing of teeth (Mat 8:12)

• Smells flesh burning and rotting.

• Worms (Isa 66:24; Mark 9:44, 46, 48)

• Bottomless Pit (Rev 9:1)

• Dark (Mat 22:13; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 1:6; Job 10:21-22; Psa 143:3; for feeling darkness see Exo 10:21)

• Outer Darkness (Mat 22:13; 25:30)

• Enlarges itself (Isa 5:14)

• Chains (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Mat 22:13)

• has bars or restrictive apparatuses (Job 17:16) like bars and locks (Mat 16:18; Rev 1:18).

• it is a prison (1Pet 3:19) for retaining people and restricting their freedoms.

• Hell is eternal "worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Isa 66:23-24)

• Everlasting Punishment (Mat 25:46), everlasting fire (Mat 25:41), everlasting burnings (Isa 33:14). Rev 20:10.

Edwards, Jonathan - Eternity of Hell's Torments
 

34.18.04 b What happens to those people who go to hell (Events)

• Hell is punishment (Mat 25:46)

• There are different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47)

• Judgment forever (Psa 119:160)

• Cannot die to escape (Job 3:21)

• Bargains with Satan will not stand (Isa 28:18)

• Body and Soul in Hell (Mat 10:28)

• You will have a Body which senses suffering (Phil 3:21)

• Many will go to hell (Mat 7:13-14, 7:22; 22:14, Luke 13:23-29) but few go to heaven (Rev 7:9) but who are in themselves a great multitude.

34.18.04 c  Reality of Hell

Perhaps the people who wish to write off hell as a figment of many Christian's imagination should be addressed. Simply put, we do not know a whole lot about hell and things surrounding entering, duration, and what goes on there. But what we do know is enough to scare the bravest person into humility and submission to God if he really believes it.

The entire concept of hell has to here be addressed. If God cannot permit a place like hell, full of suffering and eternal horrible torment, and the reason is supposedly because of His moral goodness (which is debatable), then some questions are due: (1) where did the concept of hell come from? (2) why did Jesus and his most instructive followers promote and use the concept? (3) Why does the Bible promote and use the term to motive people and change conduct using a supposed lie or false belief?

EdwardsJ - Future Punishment of Wicked Unavoidable and Intolerable

34.18.04 d Physical Location of Hell

• In the earth (deep down) (Isa 14:15; Num 16:30,33; Eze 31:15-17; Mat 11:23; Luke 10:15; Job 11:8)

• Eventually thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14; 21:8)

34.18.04 e Purpose of Hell's Creation

• Specifically for the Devil and his angels (Mat 25:41) and the beast, false prophets Rev 19:20; 20:10.

These files are in my private library and will be upload in the coming days

Alexander, James - Consolation Ch 9 Consolation derived from the uses of Chastisement
MacDuff - The Night Watches, Ch 20 The Chastisements of God
MacDuff - Pillar in the Night Ch 14 The Chastisement of Love
MacDuff - Rest and Refreshment in the Valleys Ch 29 Fatherly Chastisement
Meyer - Way into the Holiest, Ch 28 Chastisement
Murray - Divine Healing Ch 20 Is Sickness a Chastisement?
Murray - Holy in Christ Ch 29 Holiness and Chastisement
Murray - New Life Ch 33 Chastisement
Pink - Subjection under God's Chastisement (Sermon)
Pink - Comfort for the Christians Ch 7 Divine Chastisement
Pink - Exposition of Hebrews
    Chs 86-92 Divine Chastisement
Spurgeon - New Park Street Chapel Sermons Sermon #48 Chastisement

Mark 9:47-48 If thine eye offends thee, pluck it out; it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire (Gehenna); where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus in teaching on hell proposed that hell is a place of torment where the worm never dies, and the fire never dies. If hell is temporary, then both will stop, die, or cease.

Again we see people suffering "for ever and ever", and an additional comment, "they have no rest day nor night". Annihilation is a rest of a sort. It ends.

34.18.17 g Pit, Well, Depth. <go to menu>

34.18.17 h Purgatory  <go to menu>

"Purgatory" is not a biblical word, but we need to deal with it anyway. The concept of purgatory hinges on the idea that it is possible to appease God's wrath over sin by suffering. This premise in itself is something that does not have a good argument (logical or scriptural) why or how it would be. Catholicism is about the only religion that believes in purgatory, and their understanding is built up from a works-salvation standpoint. They believe that salvation is gradual and secured by good works which obtain merit before God, but the Catholic view also has the individual earning his own salvation by his own suffering (penance). This is placed side by side with Christ's work on the cross which saves a person from some of his sins. Grace communicated through works saves him from some of the rest of his sins. At death, most people apparently to the Catholics die with still some sins unresolved, for which they must be sanctified before entering heaven.

Here the argument of Catholics is to force a need for an intermediate place before reaching heaven, and this intermediate place where we get rid of these last sins is purgatory.

God has accepted Christ's suffering as payment for our sins, but Christ is God Himself, and is pure and sinless. This "suffering pays for sin" cannot necessarily transfer over to a teaching or understanding that our suffering will somehow "pay for our sins." This is never stated in Scriptures, but assumed by Catholicism.

Definition of Purgatory: From a Catholic website newadvent.org, we see that the word "purgatory" comes from the Latin "purgare" to clean or purify. According to Catholic doctrine, it "is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." Catholicism teaches that salvation is a gradual process of sanctification over time, where purgatory is the place where they are cleansed from their earthly sins not pardoned by Christ on the cross.

We would note that contrary to popular belief, purgatory is not for everybody. Only those dying "in God's grace" which in the Catholic mindset is only good Catholics. Everybody else gets an express ticket to hell.

The authority for this doctrine is the Decree of Union drawn up at the Council of Florence (Mansi t. XXXI, col 1031) and in the decree of the Council of Trent. Officially purgatory was accepted as a church doctrine in the 16th century, though the Catholic historians trace it with prayers for the dead back to the early church fathers (Council of Carthage in 394 A.D.). More recently, the popes have presented purgatory as not "a place but [rather] a condition of life." [John Paul II in a Wednesday general audience in late 1999 July.]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church page 896 - Purgatory - "a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God's friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven." Seems their view is that God didn't quite do a good or complete job of sanctifying us?

Why temporal punishment of the "saved"?

The Catholic concept is that there needs to be an additional suffering and payment for our sins even though we are saved by Christ's work. From the newadvent.org website,

"The temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God... God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the 'land of promise' (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14)... God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God."

Here what we see is that the Catholic church does not believe that the sacrifice of Christ pays the penalty of all sin. They believe in system whereby we also pay for our sins either in the earth, or also in an intermediate place between death and heaven. I would note that their examples are of God chastising His servants on earth, but it is a great leap of faith to say that God somehow chastises His children after death.

It would seem pretty obvious that immediately after death, the believers go to heaven to be with Jesus Christ. Any other situation simply does not agree with our understanding of the afterlife that God has revealed to us. Even in the Old Testament dispensation, we see Jesus presenting the parable of Lazarus and the rich man where immediately upon death, the next moment, Lazarus awakes in blessedness in the present of Abraham and the rest of the saints. The thief on the cross likewise was going that very day to be with Jesus in Paradise. These indications mean that there is no time nor any indication that the faithful go to an intermediate state where they "pay for their sins".

A very real part of this Catholic doctrine is that prayers must be made for the dead in purgatory in order to get them out faster. Catholicism admits that nobody has every gotten out of purgatory yet, and most probably nobody will until the time of the Great White Throne Judgment in the last days. The prayers for the dead goes hand in hand with the mysticism and spiritualism of the Catholic church. The communication with the dead, and the dead's communication with the living. At the bottom of all of this is the Catholic practice of having mass for the dead, which in almost every case is a income producing act for the priest and the Catholic Church. Priests usually don't hold mass for dead people unless some living person pays their fee. This playing on the sentiments of the living because they feel for their recently departed is just wrong and unethical. Let's look again at their biblical argument for the existence of purgatory (from newadvent.org again)...

New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

• St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
• St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
• St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii),
• St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
• Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).

From the site catholic.com, and their article on purgatory, they cite Mat 12:32 "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come". This passage can be clearly understood if one looks at the Greek underlying the passage. The word "age" is only used once, and the verse read more correctly "either in this world nor in the future." This does not prove purgatory, as this website contends. They say, "suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one's sins."

They also cite 1 Cor 3:15 "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". Their view is that this cannot refer to hell fire, and it cannot mean heaven which has no suffering or fire, therefore it proves purgatory. This passage does not say he will "suffer", but uses the old English term for forfeit, or to lose something. The idea has nothing to do with suffering but with losing rewards and benefits that a Christian should legitimately receive, but because of improper conduct in procuring those rewards, he will lose them.

Historical Pre-Catholic Background of Purgatory

Egypt for example had a well defined concept of purgatory well before the Catholic church was formed, and as with the Catholic concept, prayers for the dead was an important part of this doctrine. Always these prayers for the dead are inefficient without the intercession of the priests, and these functions must be paid for. This paganism well reminds us of the words of our Lord, "devouring widows' houses". These practices are found in many different pagan religions, and their abuse is well noted by people in those cultures.

Hislop - Two Babylons (1853) Chapter 2B Purgatory and Prayers

Defense or Explanation of the Doctrine

Wikipedia.com - Purgatory
NewAdvent.org - Pugatory
catholic.com - Pugatory
catholic.com - Roots of Purgatory (quotes in early centuries construed as supporting purgatory)
religioustolerance.org - Purgatory: History and Current Beliefs
religioustolerance.org - Purgatory: What the Bible says about it (not very biblical)
scripturecatholic.com - Purgatory (a lot of scripture twisting here!)

Polemics against the Doctrine of Purgatory

Davis, Jeffrey - Does Purgatory Exist? Excellent article

34.18.17 i Limbo <go to menu>

Again Limbo is an exclusively Catholic doctrine. Purgatory addresses the fate of those who are considered "Christian" (to Catholics this is exclusively Catholics), but Limbo addresses the state of those who have not "had a chance to obtain salvation." In order to meet this problem the church devised the doctrine of Limbo. Limbo is reserved for those who are not evil enough to be sent to hell or purgatory, and not good enough to go to heaven. This is almost exclusively reserved for unborn or new born babies that die. Oriniginally it was thought of as a place of mild suffering, but even this was too harsh for many Catholics so it was made a "kinder," "nicer" place. Most recently the Catholic church has rejected out of hand Limbo as not the teaching of the Catholic Church today. We wonder what happened to those babies in limbo then?

Davis, Jeffrey - Does Purgatory Exist? Excellent article

34.18.17 j Soul Sleep <go to menu>

When the Bible speaks of sleep in relationship to death, it speaks of the body of the person "sleeping" in the sense that it is not active as in life. In John 11:11 "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep." Jesus went to resurrect Lazarus from "his sleep."

The Bible presents that we are composed of more than one entity. The Bible speaks of our body, of our soul, of our mind, of our spirit. When a person dies, their body goes back to the earth as dust.

Daniel write in Daniel 12:2 about those who sleep in the dust of the earth, and their awakening. But when we speak of the body "sleeping" in the dust of the earth, this does not mean that that person's consciousness is asleep, nor his soul is asleep. It is very clear from the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 that a person never loses consciousness for anything like a "sleep" where they are not conscious. Both Lazarus and the rich man were very awake, and the rich man would have very much liked to "cease to exist" or in some way "sleep" and escape from his torturous existence. That is posited as an impossibility by Abraham.

The Scriptures always represent the truth that at death, the righteous immediately are with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-24 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul's understanding goes right in line with the OT understanding which Jesus presented in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man. When a person dies, they immediately go to their judgment (pleasure with God, or torture in hell). Hebrews 9:27 also indicates this is the truth of God. When a Christian dies, immediately he is in the presence of Jesus Christ in heaven. There is no intermediate state. He is sanctified immediately by God on entering heaven.

Revelation 6:9-11 speaks of the saved who constantly cry out to God for vengeance for their bloody deaths. The dead are definitely in a conscious state.

34.18.99 Literature on Eternal Punishment (Hell) <go to menu>

These files are in my private library and will be upload in the coming days

Books <go to menu>

Anderson, Robert - Human Destiny
Arendzen, JP (Catholic) - Eternal Punishment (38pgs)
Carpenter-Hughes- Debate on the Destiny of the Wicked
Coon, Reune - Doctrine of Future Punishment (1850)
Fyfe - The Hereafter: Sheol, Hades, and Hell, and the World to Come (1890)
Pink, Arthur - Eternal Punishment (b) 171K (25 pages)
Pridgeon, Charles Hamilton - Is Hell Eternal or Will God's Plan Fail? (1920)
Pusey, Edward Bouverie - What is Faith as to Everlasting Punishment? (1880) odt (reference type)
Reimensnyder, Junius - Doom Eternal: Bible and Church Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment (1887)
Rider, Wilson C. - A Course of Lectures on Future Punishment (1836) (images)
Shedd - Doctrine of Endless Punishment
Torrey - Heaven or Hell

Part I. - The Witness of the Church
1. Articles of Faith Universally   3. Apostolical Fathers              7. Ecumenical or General Creeds
     held are fundamental.         4. Ante-Nicene Fathers              8. Particular Creeds
2. Church historians and students  5. Homilies, apostolic testimonies. 9. Universal Consent established
     of antiquity.                 6. Individual Creeds                    not an open question
Part II. - The Teaching of Scripture
Section I Individual Words in New Testament teaching Eternal Punishment. aiwn and aiwnios
1. by Greek Classic writers        4. Aiwn                             7. as defined by lexicographers.
2. by Greek speaking Jews          5. Aiwnios                          8. Objecctions
3. New Testament                   6. usage by our Lord                9. Talmud.    10. Other Words
Section II - General Statements of Scripture
1. Life only stage of probation.   4. The Apocalypse.                  7. Purgatory.
2. Unpardonable Sins               5. The Last Judgment                8. Annihilation.
3. Finality of the future state.   6. Scriptural doctrine of Hell      9. Apocatastasis (Restitution)
Part III. The Voice of Reason.
1. Reason and Revelation.          4. Eternity the contrast of time.   7. Inveteracy of evil.
2. Natural Religions affirms it.   5. Inviolability of the will.       8. Universality of law.
3. Divine justice and divine love. 6. Guilt of sin incalcable.         9. Eternal retributions necessary.
Part IV. Fallacies and Evils of Restorationism or Universalism
1. Emotional and vituperative style.        6. Encouragement to postpone repentance.
2. Perversion of historical facts.          7. Shall we abandon the old Gospel?
3. Latent skepticism                        8. "Pale negations" 
4. Practical outcome: Universalism          9. Conclusion.
5. Marring of Christ's Redemptive glory.

1. Introductory.
2. The Nature of Eternal Punishment.
3. Eternal Punishment in Scripture.
4. Eternal Punishment in Tradition.
5. Eternal Punishment and Reason
6. Speecial Questions Relating to Eternal Punishment