SQLite format 3@  ¯¯O{tableTopicsTopicsCREATE TABLE 'Topics' (Title NVARCHAR(100), Notes TEXT)ç*ûöñìç‡>-Ža00 - Information{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053{\fonttbl{\f0\fswiss\fprq2\fcharset0 Arial;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\nowidctlpar\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs48\par The Jehovah's Witnesses \par and \par the Holy Trinity.\cf0\par \b0\fs20\par \par \par \par \i\fs24 Here is a collection of six articles dealing with the Watchtower doctrines and the Holy Trinity\par All the articles are collected from the JW Info Line homepage - {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK "http://www.jwinfoline.com"}}{\fldrslt{\ul\cf1 http://www.jwinfoline.com}}}\f0\fs24\par \par All the articles are in the form of a conversation between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a christian named Chris.\par \par \par \fs20\par \par \par \par \par \par \fs24\par \fs20 Compiled 2004-05-08 by one who hope for Gods people to love many of Gods lost sheep in#  l{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue175;\red0\green0\blue0;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 Is The Trinity True?\i\fs32\par \cf2\par Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation\par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf3\b\fs24 Joe:\cf4 \b0 Chris, I would like to talk to you about your belief in the pagan doctrine of the Trinity. How can you believe in a freakish three-headed God? Don't you understand that the Trinity was invented to turn people away from the one true God?\cf0 \par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 Joe, I don't believe that at all. Let's discuss the meaning of the word Trinity so that we can understand one another. Let's reference the Watchtower Feb. 1, 1960 pg 93.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe: \cf4\b0 It says "in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 Joe, this is a summary of the Athanasian Creed. This Creed teaches that there are three \ul\b individual persons\ulnone\b0 who are not to be confused with each other. These three persons \ul\b share the same nature\ulnone\b0 , the same attributes of being God and yet they are not three separate Gods but are \ul\b by their nature and their attributes\ulnone\b0 the one God. It appears that the Watchtower should understand the definition of the trinity because they have access to and quote from the Athanasian Creed, yet why do they constantly make reference to Christians believing that Jesus is the same person as the Father?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Where does the Watchtower do that?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 In the You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth book, on page 39 it says "Since Jesus prayed to God, asking that God's will, not his, be done, the two could not be the \ul\b same person\ulnone\b0 ." The Trinity doctrine does \ul\b not teach\ulnone\b0 that Jesus is the same person as the Father. Why does the Watchtower create a \ul\b false definition\ulnone\b0 of the Trinity?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Well I have heard people say that Jesus is the Father.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 So? Just because some people are confused about what the Trinity doctrine actually teaches does not mean that the Watchtower has permission to misrepresent the doctrine itself.\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 The Athanasian Creed is the one that is confusing! In my Reasoning from the Scriptures, it quotes the Athanasian Creed and then says that there are other statements of the dogma that emphasize that the three "Persons" are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. These three modes make God to be a three-headed God.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 That is not true. What the Watchtower is referring to is a doctrine called Modalism. This doctrine that there are not three separate persons but only three modes that one person operates in has for almost 1,700 years been labelled as a heresy and not compatible with true Christianity. Modalism has never been a part of the Athanasian Creed nor is it a part of the Trinity teaching today. I challenge you to show me the Athanasian Creed where it says that God operates in three modes. That is not a part of the Athanasian Creed even though the Watchtower would have you think that! No wonder Jehovah's Witnesses are so confused when Christians say they believe Jesus is God. \cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 What do you mean? I'm not confused!\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 If the elders from your Kingdom Hall were here and I told them that I believe that Jesus is God, would they interpret that to mean that I believe that Jesus is the same person as the Father?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Well, yes, they would. They would probably say to you "If Jesus is God, who was he talking to when he was hanging on the cross?"\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 Joe, that's Modalism. That's why it is difficult if not impossible for Christians to communicate with Jehovah's Witnesses. The Watchtower has taught you to confuse Modalism with the Trinity. Only when we understand the difference between Modalism and Trinity can we communicate properly. Let me give you an example of what I mean. Joe, give me a definition of "cat".\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 The Watchtower is not the one that is confused. The Trinity doctrine is very confusing. And I don't see your point about the definition of a cat.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 You will shortly. Joe, to show my point, I need you to give me a definition of "cat".\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Well, ok, a cat is a cuddly, warm, purring pet. I have two of them myself.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 What would you say if I told you that my neighbor drove his "cat" through the mud and it got stuck. Then as it got colder the "cat" froze into the mud so my nei ghbor decided to leave it there until spring.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 It sounds like your neighbor is a very cruel person.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 If my neighbor's "cat" was your definition of a cuddly, warm, purring pet, then my neighbor was very cruel indeed! But his "cat" was not an animal but a machine. It was this kind of "cat" that got stuck in the mud. You see, Joe, you and I could never agree on whether my nei\b g\b0 hbor was a cruel person or not as long as we had different definitions for "cat".\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 I see what you mean. You are saying that when other people have different meanings for the same words they cannot communicate properly unless there is a basic understanding of the meaning of your words.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 That's right. In the Watchtower's Reasoning from the Scriptures book on page 407 it says "Does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?" Here is a perfect example of where the Watchtower is confusing Modalism with the Trinity.\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Are you trying to tell me that when the Watchtower states that the Trinity teaches Jesus is the Father, this is not true? You don't believe that??\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 Absolutely. I don't believe that Jesus is the Father and I don't know any one who understands the Trinity doctrine properly who believes that either.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 But I know that Jesus can't be God. He is not as powerful as Jehovah.\b \cf0\b0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4 \b0 Joe, we need to discuss "What does it mean to be God?" Only when we both understand and agree on the very nature of God can we discuss whether Jesus has that nature or not and therefore qualifies to be God. Next week let's discuss the attributes of God that the Watchtower must reject in order to reject the Trinity doctrine.\cf0\par \cf3\lang1053\b Joe:\cf4 \b0 Ok.\cf0 \par \pard\par } ??‡>-Ža00 - Information{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053{\fonttbl{\f0\fswiss\fprq2\fcharset0 Arial;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\nowidctlpar\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs48\par The Jehovah's Witnesses \par and \par the Holy Trinity.\cf0\par \b0\fs20\par \par \par \par \i\fs24 Here is a collection of six articles dealing with the Watchtower doctrines and the Holy Trinity\par All the articles are collected from the JW Info Line homepage - {\field{\*\fldinst{HYPERLINK "http://www.jwinfoline.com"}}{\fldrslt{\ul\cf1 http://www.jwinfoline.com}}}\f0\fs24\par \par All the articles are in the form of a conversation between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a christian named Chris.\par \par \par \fs20\par \par \par \par \par \par \fs24\par \fs20 Compiled 2004-05-08 by one who hope for Gods people to love many of Gods lost sheep into heaven.\fs24\par } $’$°kßc02 - What attributes of God must the WT reject?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1 ¸?ïo01 - Is the Trinity true?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053\deftab1304{\fonttb 053\deftab1304{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue175;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 What attributes of God must the Watchtower reject to reject the Trinity?\cf2\i\fs32\par \par Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation\par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf2\b\fs24 Chris:\cf3\b0 Last week we said that in order to discuss whether Jesus was God or not, we need to discuss what it means to be God. Only when we both understand and agree on the very \ul\b nature\ulnone\b0 of God can we discuss whether Jesus has that nature or not.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 But everyone knows what it means to be God. God is the most powerful person in the universe.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Not everyone knows what it means to be God. Sometimes people create a god in their own image, someone they can easily figure out and manipulate. But God is not a God like that. He is an awesome God so much greater and higher than us. In fact, unless he \ul\b reveals\ulnone\b0 his nature to us, we could never really understand Him. One of the attributes of God that He has revealed in His word is his \ul\b omnipresence\ulnone\b0 .\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 God cannot be omnipresent for he is spoken of as having a location.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 We need first of all to define omnipresence. Joe, when I say that God is omnipresent what does that mean to you?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 Well, the Watchtower says that omnipresence means being an all-pervasive impersonal spirit that is everywhere and in everything. We are taught that when Christians talk about God being omnipresent they make it hard for people to believe that God is real.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf3\b0 No wonder it is so hard for Jehovah's Witnesses to understand the Christian's view of God. You see, Joe, the Watchtower has misdefined the term omnipresent.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 What do you mean? Doesn't omnipresent mean literally being everywhere and in everything?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 No, Joe. Omnipresence has nothing to do with being \ul\b in\ulnone\b0 things. The New Webster's Dictionary says that omnipresence means the power of being present in every place at the same time, an attribute of God. The teaching that God is in everything is a new age teaching. It is what the pagan's believe. It is not the correct meaning of omnipresence nor is it a Christian teaching.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 I don't see the difference. It has to mean the same thing.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 No it doesn't. Let me give you an example. Does the Watchtower teach that the holy spirit is everywhere?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 Yes. The Watchtower teaches that God's spirit is everywhere.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Does the Watchtower teach that God's spirit is in everyone or in everything?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 Well, no. Jehovah's spirit is only in operation in those who are true Christians. And Jehovah's spirit can only indwell the 144,000 who will be going to heaven.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf3\b0 So the Watchtower teaches that God's spirit is everywhere but not in everything. That is the correct teaching of omnipresence. Why would the Watchtower misrepresent the historic Christian teaching of God's omnipresence when it comes to the Father?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 I don't know...But anyway, we know that Jesus is not omnipresent. Even if Jehovah is omnipresent, Jesus is not.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Have a look at Matthew 18:20. What does your New World Translation say?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 It says "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." I know that the Watchtower says that this is the holy spirit that is everywhere.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Have another look at the verse. Jesus said "For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there \ul\b I am\ulnone\b0 in their midst." What does "I am" mean?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 It must mean the holy spirit.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 If Jesus meant the holy spirit he would have said holy spirit, not "I am". "I am" means Jesus \ul\b personally\ulnone\b0 . Jesus said that he would personally be wherever his followers are.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 The Watchtower says that when Jesus said these words, that this means a \ul\b future\ulnone\b0 presence. Jesus was talking about his presence that would happen in 1914.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 The Watchtower is again trying to correct Jesus. Jesus did not say "I will be with you" as in some future time. He very clearly said "I am". That is present tense not some future happening. Being personally present everywhere at one time is omnipresence. \cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 So what you are saying is that it is an attribute of the nature of God to be omnipresent?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 That's correct Joe. The Jews for thousands of years have believed that God taught his omnipresence in Psalms 139. What does your bible say?\cf0 \par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 It says "Where can I go from your spirit, And where can I run away from your face? If I should ascend to heaven, there you would be; And if I should spread out my couch in She'ol, look! you [would be there]. Were I to take the wings of the dawn, That I might reside in the most remote sea, There, also, your own hand would lead me, And your right hand would lay hold of me."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Joe, what does this mean. If you could go to the ends of the universe, who would be there?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe:\cf3\b0 The psalmist says "you". That means Jehovah personally. But, Chris how can God be at all places at once and still said to have a location?\cf0 \par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Good question, let's continue this discussion next week, Joe.\cf0\par \pard\par } u mean, "How big is God?"\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 I mean, is God 6 feet tall? Or is he 18 feet tall? Or how about a 1,000 miles tall?\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Oh, I see what you mean. I don't know. I guess he must be about normal size, maybe 6 feet tall.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Where do you get the idea that God is about 6 feet tall?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 The Watchtower always depicts God as sitting on his throne in heaven. And since He is shown to be about the same size as angels and they are about the same size as men, I suppose that means that God is about the same size as men.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Do you know that the Bible talks about how big God is?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 No. I've never seen that.\cf0 \par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, can you read 2 Chronicles 6:18 in your Bible?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Sure it says "But will God truly dwell with mankind upon the earth? Look! Heaven, yes, the heaven of the heavens themselves, \ul\b cannot contain you\ulnone\b0 ; how much less, then, this house that I have built?"\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Could the house that Solomon built contain God?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 I have never seen that verse before.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 So God is bigger than the temple that Solomon built. Can heaven contain God?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 2 Chronicles 6:18 says that not even the heaven of heavens can contain God. This must be talking about his power not Jehovah himself.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Let's have a look at God's own testimony about himself. Joe, can you read Jeremiah 23:24 in your New World Translation?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It says "Or can any man be concealed in places of concealment and I myself not see him?" is the utterance of Jehovah. "Is it not the heavens and the earth that \ul\b I myself\ulnone\b0 actually fill?" is the utterance of Jehovah."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Does Jehovah say that he fills the heavens and the earth personally?\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 This has to be talking about holy spirit. Holy spirit is everywhere and fills the heavens and the earth.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Have another look at the verse. It says "Is it not the heavens and the earth that \ul\b I\ulnone\b0 \ul\b myself\ulnone\b0 actually fill?" What does "I myself" mean?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 I'll have to do some research on that.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 You see, Joe, although \ul\b Jehovah's throne is in heaven\ulnone\b0 , but \ul\b heaven cannot contain Jehovah\ulnone\b0 . Jehovah God is in heaven, but he is also everywhere else as well. Jehovah the Father has the attribute of being omnipresent. Both Jesus and the Father have the attribute of omnipresence. Both of them are everywhere at the same time.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe: \cf4\b0 But the Watchtower teaches that it is God's power that is everywhere not Jehovah himself.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 The Watchtower has made God out to be a very small God by teaching that his power is not a part of God himself.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 I'm not sure of what you mean.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Let me show you. I am going to knock down that coffee cup on the table with my power. Did you see that I pushed it with my power which is my hand? Now, Joe, take my power and knock down that cup.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 I can't just take your power unless I take your hand and knock down the cup. Your power is not something that is outside of your person.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 That's right Joe. Now what if I got into my car and drove over to a brick wall and using the car, I pushed the brick wall over. Would the car be my power?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 No. The car's power is the car's power. It is not yours. \cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 That's right, Joe. Only the power that resides in you is yours. The power that comes from a machine that you use is not yours but the machine's power. Jehovah's power is \ul\b in his person\ulnone\b0 . It is \ul\b his power\ulnone\b0 . Omnipotent or all powerful means possessing all power within yourself. Historic Christianity teaches that God is omnipotent. Omnipotence is not having control of a power outside of God's person. It is God's power that he personally has. If God's power was outside of his person, then that power would become God, and Jehovah would only be the one \ul\b using the power\ulnone\b0 . Anyone that could take that power and use it would have the power to become God. Doesn't your own Watchtower say that Jesus used Jehovah's power to create all things? Did Jesus then become God because he had control of all the power? And what would have happened if Jesus would have refused to give the power back?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Chris, you seem to be saying that the Watchtower has made God to be a small God. I will have to do some research on what you have told me, but tell me, how could Jesus be God when he didn't know things here on earth?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 That's a good subject to talk about next week.\cf0\par \pard\par } XX¯ qÝ;03 - Can God be everywhere when he has a location?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053\deftab1304{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue175;\red0\green0\blue0;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 Can God be everywhere when he has a location?\i\par \cf2\fs32\par Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation\par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf3\b\fs24 Joe:\cf4\b0 Chris last week we talked about God's omnipresence. I still don't understand that teaching. How can God be at all places at once and still said to have a location?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, the question we need to ask first is "How big is God?"\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe: \cf4\b0 What do yos here on earth?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, does the Watchtower say that one of the reasons that Jesus cannot be God is that he didn't know everything while he was here on earth?\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Yes, that's right.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 And does the Watchtower say that the Father is God \ul\b because\ulnone\b0 he knows everything?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 That is one of his attributes - his unlimited knowledge.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 That's interesting Joe, because I have read that the Watchtower teaches that God doesn't know everything.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 That is certainly not true. I have never seen any such statement.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Let me ask you some questions to show you where I am going. Does the Watchtower teach that the Father knows \ul\b everything about the past\ulnone\b0 ?\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Yes, of course. Jehovah God knows everything.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Does he know everything \ul\b in the present time\ulnone\b0 ?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe: \cf4\b0 There is no doubt about that. The Bible even says in Hebrews 4:13 "And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Now tell me, Joe, does the Father \ul\b know the future\ulnone\b0 ?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Yes he does. The May 15, 1982 Watchtower pg 7 says "...Jehovah has proved himself to be the God who does know the future, including that of human governments."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Does the Watchtower also teach that the Father chooses not to know some things about the future?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Just because he has this knowledge does not mean that he uses it. The Watchtower says in the Feb. 15, 1995 Watchtower on pages 5 & 6 "...in many cases, he has chosen not to use his foreknowledge. Because God is almighty, he is free to exercise his abilities as he wishes, not according to the wishes of imperfect humans."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 I don't believe that God only selectively knows the future, but if I understand the Watchtower right, they teach that there are things that the Father doesn't know yet he is still qualifies to be God?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Yes, there are some future things that the Father has chosen not to know. But Jesus didn't know some things while he was here on earth. If his Father knew these things, but Jesus did not, how could Jesus be God?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, have a look at Philippians 2:6 in your New World Translation. It says about Jesus "who, although he was existing in God's form" The Greek word for existing is huparcho (hoop-ar'-kho); and is a present active participle meaning that Jesus was existing in God's form and still continues to exist in his form. Yet at the same time Jesus did something. Can you read verse 7?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It says "No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, what did Jesus empty himself of?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 The Feb. 15, 1992 Watchtower pg 17 says that "God's only-begotten Son enjoyed a preeminent position of heavenly glory superior to all the angels. He was rich indeed! Yet he willingly emptied himself, was born as a member of a poor family, and grew up surrounded by sick, dying humans." So Jesus must have emptied himself of his position and heavenly glory.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 That's correct Joe. He emptied himself of his position and heavenly glory in order that he could also become man. When he was here on earth \ul\b he chose to limit himself\ulnone\b0 to the nature of aman. He got tired and had to sleep. He was hungry and needed food and he chose to limit his infinite knowledge unless it was for a specific purpose so that he could live as a true man. Yet at the same time Philippians says that he \ul\b never stopped\ulnone\b0 being in God's form. So what Jesus did was take on \ul\b another nature\ulnone\b0 in addition to that which he \ul\b already had\ulnone\b0 . He couldn't have dropped his heavenly nature, because Phillippians said that he \ul\b never stopped\ulnone\b0 being in God's form. \cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying that Jesus chose to limit his knowledge and powers in order to live as a man and that even though he was a true man, he never stopped existing in God's form?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris: \cf4\b0 Yes Joe, that's correct. But do you see that the Watchtower has taken a hypocritical position when it comes to Jesus? They say that the Father is God even though they teach that he can choose to not know certain things. Yet at the same time they try to prove that Jesus is not God because he chose to limit his knowledge when he was a man. I would like to talk to you next week about how Jesus showed that he was God while he was here on earth.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Okay. Let's talk again next week.\cf0\par \pard\par } ii®|AÝI04 - How Can Jesus be God?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053\deftab1304{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue175;\red0\green0\blue0;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 How can Jesus be God when he didn't know everything?\i\fs32\par \par \cf2 Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation\par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf3\b\fs24 Joe:\cf4\b0 Chris, last week we talked about how the Watchtower denies God's omnipresence and how you believe that this teaching has made him out to be a limited and small God. Since you believe that Jesus shares the nature of God with his Father, tell me, how could Jesus be God when he didn't know thingthat Jesus is the Father. What I am saying is that Jesus has the nature or character or attributes of God. The same attributes that make the Father God, also qualifies Jesus as God.\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 Are you saying that Jesus is God because he has the attributes that only God has? I have never seen any attributes of God that belong to Jesus.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Well, we have already talked about one of the unique attributes that God has and that is omnipresence. No angel can be everywhere at one time. No man can be everywhere at one time. Only God has as his nature the attribute of omnipresence. And remember that Jesus claimed to possess omnipresence by promising to be everywhere that two or three of his disciples are gathered.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 So if Jesus is God and the Father is God then you believe that there are two Gods!\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 No. Joe, let me illustrate it to you this way. Look at this bowl of water. Would you say that this bowl of water is three separate entities?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 No of course not. Water is a unit. It is a whole thing.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Now what if I took some of the water and put it into an ice cube tray to freeze. Then I took some of the water and put it into a steamer to produce steam. Would you say that the ice and the steam and the water are three separate entities?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 No they are not. They would be separate forms but they are the same essence. They are all H2O. They all have the same molecular structure.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 You're right Joe. Although their form is different, their essence or substance is the same. Ice is not the same as steam and water is not the same form as ice yet their essence or genetic makeup is identical. And although ice and steam and water have different forms, they could be put together into a container and they would all become one essence - H20. In the teaching of historic Christianity, the Father could be like the ice, the son! like the water and the holy spirit like the steam. All have the very same essence, that is they have the same attributes or characteristics or molecular structure. Yet we see them differently. And Jesus when he became man was like a separate substance, coffee, being added to the hot water. Jesus added a human nature (the coffee) to the H2O (or God essence) that he already had!\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 But the Watchtower teaches that while Jesus was on earth he was nothing but a mere man. How can you prove from scripture how Jesus demonstrated that he had God's nature or characteristics while he was here on earth? I only see Jesus as a man.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, let's first of all have a look at 2 Chronicles 6:30. Can you read that in your New World Translation?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It says "then may you yourself hear from the heavens, the place of your dwelling, and you must forgive and give to each one according to all his ways, because you know his heart (for you yourself alon"e well know the heart of the sons of mankind)."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 In this verse we are given another unique characteristic of God. What is it Joe?\cf0 \par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It says that God alone knows the hearts of men. But Satan can read our hearts or minds too, can't he?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 No. Satan only has access to put thoughts into our minds. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that he can \ul\b read our minds\ulnone\b0 . In fact the verse you just read says without a shadow of a doubt that only God can read the hearts of men. Now if Jesus has God's essence, or character, or nature, then Jesus could also read the hearts of men. Look at Matthew 12:25. What does it say in your Bible?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It says about Jesus "\ul\b Knowing their thoughts\ulnone\b0 , he said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." It don't understand this. It says that Jesus knew their thoughts.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Have a look at another passage in your Bible. Look at Luke 9:47.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 "Jesus, \ul\b knowing the reasoning of their hearts\ulnone\b0 , took a young child, set it beside him..." It says that Jesus knew the reasoning of their hearts.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 There are a lot of passages where Jesus reads people's thoughts, but have a look at one more that says that Jesus search all hearts. It is found in Revelation 2:23.\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 "And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that \ul\b I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts\ulnone\b0 , and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds." \cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Who is speaking in Revelation 2:23?\cf0\par \cf3\b Joe:\cf4\b0 It is Jesus who is speaking, but the trinity can't be true because holy spirit is not a person.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Let's discuss the holy spirit next week.\cf0\par \pard\par } €€®e]Ü05 - How did Jesus show that he was God?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053\deftab1304{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue175;\red0\green0\blue0;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 How did Jesus show that he was God?\cf2\i\fs32\par \par Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation\par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf3\b\fs24 Joe:\cf4\b0 Chris, you told me that this week we would discuss how Jesus could be God while he was here on earth. I believe that Jesus while he was on earth was only a good man.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf4\b0 Joe, remember that when we are talking about Jesus being God I am not saying % Spirit has personality?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Let me read from the Watchtower's Reasoning from the Scriptures page 380. It says that "A comparison of Bible texts that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as \lquote filling' people; they can be \lquote baptized' with it; and they can be anointed with it... None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person." You see, Chris, the Holy Spirit is nothing more than an impersonal, invisible, active force. In fact the spirit can be considered to be like electricity.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 It is true that the Holy Spirit is \lquote invisible' and is a \lquote force', but that does not prevent him from having intelligence, self awareness, will and other personal characteristics; things which no impersonal force such as electricity could possess. Angels are also invisible forces, yet you do not believe that they are impersonal, do you?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 No. Angels are not impersonal beings. They &are spirit persons. I think that this will help you to understand holy spirit. In my You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth book it says "John the Baptizer said that Jesus would baptize with holy spirit, even as John had been baptizing with water. Hence, in the same way that water is not a person, holy spirit is not a person."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Joe, can you read Galatians 3:27 in your New World Translation?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 It says "For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Since people can be baptized into Christ and clothed with Christ, does this prove that Jesus must not be a person?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Well, no. Jesus Christ is a person. But what about when it says that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples? How could a person be poured out?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Joe, would you read Philippians 2:27 in your Bible?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Sure. It says, "Notwithstanding, even if I am bein'g poured out like a drink offering..."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 If the pouring out of the Holy Spirit was evidence against his personality, then Paul would not be a person either because he is said to be poured out.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 What about the filling of the Spirit? How could the Holy Spirit fill about 120 disciples if the Spirit is a person?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Joe, look at Ephesians 1:23.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 It says "which is his body, the fullness of him who \ul\b fills up all things in all\ulnone\b0 ."\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Who is the "him" who fills up all things?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 That has to be Jehovah God.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 So it is Jehovah God who is the one who fills up all things. Is this "him" who fills all the disciples not a divine person? And isn't this divine person said to have personal characteristics?\cf0 \par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Chris, often the Bible will personify a non-living thing. For example in my Reason(ing book on page 380 it says that just because something is personified doesn't mean that it is a person, and \lquote wisdom' is given as an illustration. Holy spirit is personified but it is not a person.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Doesn't the Society teach that wisdom personified \ul\b is not\ulnone\b0 an impersonal thing but is the person of Jesus? Now are you telling me that they are saying that wisdom personified \ul\b is\ulnone\b0 an impersonal thing? Sounds like double talk to me. Joe, do you believe that Satan is a spirit person because he has the qualifying attributes of a person? \cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Yes. We know that Satan is not an impersonal force like holy spirit. Satan is a real person.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 The Society says in the Awake! December 8, 1973 magazine, "Is the Devil a personification or a person?...these accounts relate to conversations between the Devil and God, and between the Devil and Jesus Christ. Both Jehovah God and Jesus Christ are persons. Can a)n unintelligent \lquote force' carry on a conversation with a person? Also, the Bible calls Satan a manslayer, a liar, a father..and a ruler..only an intelligent person could fit all those descriptions." Joe, in Acts 8:29 it says that "the Spirit said to Philip.." Using the Watchtower's reasoning, could an unintelligent \lquote force' carry on a conversation with a person? The Holy Spirit even calls himself \lquote me' in Acts 13:2.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 Let me read that for myself in my Bible. It says "As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: "Of all persons set Bar'nabas and Saul apart \ul\b for me\ulnone\b0 for the work to which I have called them." I've never seen that before.\cf0 \par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 The Holy Spirit is also said to be a comforter, a helper, a teacher, a guide, one who speaks and hears, all of which clearly shows that he is an intelligent person. And he can be lied to. Have a look at Acts 5:3, 4. No impersonal force an be lied to and the holy spirit is also called God in this passage.\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 But why would the Bible use a neuter term for Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is a person?\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 In the New Testament a neuter term is commonly used of children, unclean spirits and even angels. The neuter term does not repudiate their being persons. Your Bible even calls Jesus an "it". Does that mean that Jesus is not a person?\cf0\par \cf4\b Joe: \cf3\b0 We have never called Jesus an "it". Only holy spirit is called it.\cf0\par \cf2\b Chris:\cf3\b0 Have a look at Matthew 2:13. It says "Jehovah's angel appeared in a dream to Joseph, saying: \lquote Get up, take the young child and \ul\b its\ulnone\b0 mother and flee into Egypt, and stay there until I give you word; for Herod is about to search for the young child to destroy \ul\b it\ulnone\b0 ." The neuter term is used for child and the Watchtower translates that "it". \lang1053 Is Jesus an "it"? Is Jesus not a person?\cf0\par \pard\par } 66µ+eê06 - Is the Holy Spirit an impersonal Force?{\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\deff0\deflang1053\deflangfe1053\deftab1304{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fprq2\fcharset0 Times New Roman;}} {\colortbl ;\red0\green0\blue255;\red234\green0\blue35;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue175;} {\*\generator Riched20 5.40.11.2210;}\viewkind4\uc1\pard\sb100\sa100\qc\cf1\lang2057\b\f0\fs36 Is the Holy Spirit an impersonal Force?\cf2\b0\i\fs32\par \b\par Our discussion will take the form of a simulated conversation \par between a Jehovah's Witness named Joe and a Christian named Chris.\par \cf0\b0\i0\par \pard\sb100\sa100\cf2\b\fs24 Chris:\cf3\b0 Joe, can you explain to me why the Watchtower does not believe that the Holy$